S1, E05 – Shawshank Redemption: The Book

Full Episode Transcript

Ghenet: Hey, it’s Ghenet. Before we dive into today’s episode, I want to give a shoutout to our two newest patrons, Jenny and VJ. If you want to be like Jenny and VJ, get great bonus content, and support the podcast, you can head over to patreon.com/bookbetterpodcast if you’d like to find out more. And now on to this week’s episode, this week, I am joined by my friend, actor, and film enthusiast, Chris, as we discuss The Shawshank Redemption. So, happy listening.

[The Book Was Better Podcast theme]

Ghenet: Welcome to The Book Was Better. I am your host, Ghenet, and I’m joined today by a very old friend of mine, Chris. We’re going to be talking about, I think, what is probably the most classic film of all time. Is it a classic now? I mean it’s an icon really, isn’t it? Now, I don’t know about you, but I’ve watched this movie so many times in my life, but I’d never actually read the book that it was based on–

Chris: Same, same.

Ghenet: Do you want to introduce yourself? 

Chris: Yeah. My name is Chris Barlow and I do these fun little film reviews that started off as Oscar-nominated pictures of the year, and then during lockdown, I turned that into any of my favorite films, and I started a little website called ninethumbsup.com. 

Ghenet: And you’re an actor as well. You do lots of [crosstalk] stuff.

Chris: Oh, yeah, I do acting. Yeah, I do acting when I can, when I’m allowed, when the industry is up and running. That’s what– [crosstalk] 

Ghenet: I’ve seen you on my TV on multiple occasions-

[laughter] 

Ghenet: -which is always a delight.

Chris: What a joy. 

Ghenet: We’re going to be talking about ta-da-ta-da, The Shawshank Redemption, which is based on the book by Stephen King, Rita Hayworth and Shawshank Redemption. But yeah, let’s get into the book into Rita Hayworth and the Shawshank Redemption. 

Chris: Let’s go. 

Ghenet: We start off by a little introduction from Red, who is the narrator. Now, I will confess to you very early on, but it took me a few pages into not hear Morgan Freeman as the narrator as I was reading it [laughs] because I’ve seen that film so many times.

Chris: It took you a few pages. I’m not even joking. I still had his voice in my head on page 130. 

Ghenet: [laughs] 

Chris: I just kept reading his voice. You can’t not read it in his voice. He is so– [crosstalk]  

Ghenet: He has that classic voice. 

Chris: Yeah.

Ghenet: And he narrates so many things anyway, but I think it faded a little bit. But certainly, at the start, I was like, “I’m just hearing this in Morgan Freeman’s voice. That’s literally [crosstalk] all.” 

Chris: Yeah, I was reading out loud in Morgan Freeman’s voice.

[laughter] 

Ghenet: Oh, my God.

Chris: Because really, he adds such class. [laughs] 

Ghenet: He does. And I think– 

Chris: He has a real element of class. So, it’s really cool.

Ghenet: He does. He really does. He has that gravitas, doesn’t he? That perfect voice for that kind of thing. 

Chris: Yeah.

Ghenet:  I think it’s really interesting as well, but a lot of the things that he’s saying just in the text are things that he also said in the film. So, you just– [crosstalk] 

Chris: It’s incredible.

Ghenet: You can’t– [crosstalk] hear it.

Chris: It is incredible how loyal it is. Yeah, so much of the dialogue is lifted from the book, especially early on. Especially, the opening to the film, it’s a lot of– Well, the courtroom scene and when they first get to the prison and the prison yard, so much is from the book. I read the book the other day and watch the film last night. So, you’re getting excited. [laughs] You can get excited when you spot things like, “Oh, yeah, that was in the book. I remember that.”

Ghenet: Yeah, same.

Chris: Yeah.

Ghenet: Same. There were so many little moments. The only thing I think we don’t really get into in the film, which we do in the book is, we get a bit more background about Red and what exactly he’s in prison for, because there’s that thing where everyone’s so focused on what Andy did and Andy’s questionable innocence. Then, Red has that great thing where he’s having that conversation with Tommy and he’s like, “Oh, yeah, no, I’m the only guilty person in Shawshank,” but we never ever get the details of what he did to get end up in prison. But in the book, it starts with a bit of a, “Let me tell you about myself,” intro-type thing. 

Chris: Yeah. 

Ghenet: And he explains to us that he was 20 when he came to Shawshank for murder because he took out an insurance policy on his wife and then breaks in her car, but he wasn’t expecting other people to be in the car with her. That’s quite an extreme crime. So, it’s very strange to hear– That sounds– 

Chris: It’s really extreme. 

Ghenet: That’s sounds very [crosstalk] the way I just said that.

Chris: It’s really extreme– [crosstalk] But no, no. The thing is it’s a really comedic bit, it’s oddly comedic. It’s very unlucky. 

[laughter] 

Chris: Because he’s like the hero of the show. 

Ghenet: Yeah.

Chris: He’s the hero of the film. We’re on his journey. He’s narrating it to us. We’re in his confidence. 

Ghenet: Yeah. 

Chris: Straightaway, he says, “You know, I was just this kid who took out an insurance claim on my young wife, and then cut her brakes.” So, he intended to get rid of her. Then, it’s just this throwaway line of, “Little did I know she would pick up her friend and her friend’s child.” So, “Wow, you kill the child as well.” And it’s quickly brushed– it’s kind of, “Oh, he’s still a good guy.” It’s fine. 

Ghenet: Yeah. [crosstalk] fine get to him as this good guy, and then you sort of like, “Oh, wait, no, he’s in prison too.” All of these men are in prison for things. 

Chris: Yeah. In the worst prison ever. The world’s highest security–

[laughter] 

Ghenet: Yes.

Ghenet: For this [unintelligible [00:05:34] they’re okay. [laughs]  

Ghenet: Yeah, I guess that’s part of the charm of the story, isn’t it? That they’re just like, “It sucks you in anyway.” 

Chris: Yeah. 

Ghenet: We learn about this crime, and then he starts telling us about Andy Dufresne. You’re reading the book and you’re trying not to picture too much the people in the movie, because you’re just so used to it. So, I was like, “Oh, Andy’s short, and he wears glasses, and he’s has this funny look.”

Chris: That was a funny one. Yeah. 

Ghenet: Yeah. But I was like, “Oh, no– [crosstalk] 

Chris: I saw the picture. Big, tall Tim Robbins. 

Ghenet: Yeah.

Chris: The giant that is Tim Robbins. That must have been an interesting casting choice as well because of course, later on in the book, spoilers anybody, it’s all about him creating a tunnel, and even the book explains him that only a guy of Andy’s size could get through. 

Ghenet: Yeah.

Chris: Yeah. Even though he’s so tall, I guess, because he’s so lean, that helps. Because it was like– In the film, he even calls him a tall drink of water–

[laughter]  

Ghenet: Yeah. 

Chris: When he first sees him and puts the bets on him, yeah.

Ghenet: Yeah. So, we start to meet Andy but everything that he tells us about Andy is hearsay. It’s not presented to us as fact. It’s more presented to us as like, “Oh, well, so and so heard this about him, and this, and this–” 

Chris: Yeah.

Ghenet: His own sort of opinion about Andy as he’s kind of come to know him, which I think is really interesting because obviously, in a film, you have to just present it as fact. But there’s a lot more of like, “Oh, well, apparently so and so said this to so and so who said to me that this is what happened.” It’s the way that we’re reading this story is very much all this stuff has already happened, and now, he’s going back to tell us everything as opposed to in the film where we’re watching it progress. 

Chris: Sure. Yeah. We only get that insight right at the end. We only get the insight that he’s actually decided to write this down as an older man, and it is a physical copy with him in the prison. Yeah, we only find that out, yeah, you’re right, right at the end, whereas at first, it is just gossip and hearsay.

Ghenet: Yeah, and also, the way that the timeline jumps around like he gives us updates to be like, “All right, so then by this time we had this warden, and this was the main screw and, and then this year, was this guy, and these are some of the things that were happening.” So, the timeline jumps around a bit more.

Chris: It gives us some real nice anchors when’s the picture, like when he mentions The Beatles.

Ghenet: Oh, yeah.

Chris: You know like, “It’s the time The Beatles did this. It’s the time Nixon did this,” and all this kind of stuff feels it’s pretty cool, so you turn for the– [crosstalk] 

Ghenet: And then, the Red Sox won the World Series– [crosstalk] 

Chris: Yeah.

Ghenet: And that’s very clear timestamps on it, which I think is really interesting. And then, there was this great detail that I loved right after we get, they’re talking about the jury at Andy’s trial, because we’ve gone through this whole trial, and we get some great moments of Andy being really sassy with the DA, because he mentions that when he found out that his wife was having an affair that he was suicidal, and that’s why he goes to buy the gun, which is actually a really interesting detail that tells you a little bit about Andy in terms of who he is and his relationship with his wife, but that was his immediate reaction, was to go buy a gun, not for her, but for him- 

Chris: Yeah. 

Ghenet: -and there’s this great conversation. Just let me see if I can find it.

Chris: I, absolutely loved about that whole scene in the book and also, they do it spot on in the film as well. 

Ghenet: Yeah. 

Chris: I absolutely love that he keeps his calm on the witness stand. 

Ghenet: Oh, yeah. 

Chris: That is so refreshing. It’s so refreshing because so many times you see somebody get worked up in a– they basically fall into the trap of the person who’s trying to rattle them. Andy is just cool as a cucumber, and that’s so refreshing to see, and I don’t know about you, but straightaway, you’re on his side. 

Ghenet: Oh, yeah. Absolutely.

Chris: Straightaway you’re like, “Yeah, you tell him, you tell him.” Straightaway, I bought his story. 

Ghenet: Yeah. [laughs] 

Chris: Because he was just like, “This guy knows what he’s talking about.”

Ghenet: He stays so logical the whole time, and just in general, like how he moves forward through it. Oh, my God, it was really funny, but I love this bit where he talks as part of his cross examination where they’re like, “Oh, yeah, you were suicidal? Okay.” Then, the DA is like, “Would it bother you over much Mr. Dufresne if I told you that you did not seem to me to be the suicidal type?” “No,” said Andy, “But you don’t impress me as being terribly sensitive and-

[laughter] 

Ghenet: -I doubt very much that if I were feeling suicidal, I would take my problems with you.” 

Chris: Yeah. [laughs] 

Ghenet: Andy!

Chris: He is so clever, though. He’s so clever and quick. 

Ghenet and Chris: Yeah. 

Ghenet: He’s very quick witted and you get that straightaway before you even really learn too much about him just the way that he is. You can tell that he’s really smart. You can tell that he’s very like, “Well, no, it’s actually really inconvenient that you haven’t been able find–” [crosstalk]

Chris: I love that line. 

Ghenet: Yeah. [laughs] 

Chris: I think I even applauded that when I read the book. So, yeah, is it the prosecutor? The prosecutor says, “Don’t you find it convenient that your gun has been thrown into the river and no one can find it?” And his answer, of course, is, “Well, no. As an innocent man, that’s very inconvenient.” I was just like [applauds] That’s so good.

Ghenet: [laughs] 

Chris: Just in case, we’re ever on the stand, take that down.

Ghenet: Unfortunately, the jury didn’t fall for it. They took two and a half hours to convict him, but it only took two and a half hours because they stopped to get a chicken dinner-

Chris: Yeah. I love that. 

Ghenet: -which is a brilliant detail. 

Chris: Don’t mind us. 

Ghenet: We’re just going to go get lunch.

Chris: Don’t mind us, we’re just going to– Yeah.  

[laughter] 

Ghenet: [unintelligible [00:11:01]. Let’s just go across the road and get a chicken dinner like you do. So, lo and behold, Andy ends up at Shawshank, and then we get some of these details about all the things that happen at Shawshank, that they have the laundry service, license plate factory, there’s a car garage with more income for the prison, isn’t it? You kind of figure out straightaway that all of the wardens are doing their best to fill their own pockets. That seems to be quite a common– 

Chris: Yeah, they’re all quite corrupt, they’re all bad guys, they’re all bad guys. 

Ghenet: And then, there’s this bit where when Andy first approaches Red, and they’re having this conversation about money, and he comments that– well, I found out later that actually Andy brought in money with him, and then he explained that whole thing about how basically, Andy hid $500 up his butt to bring it into the– [crosstalk] 

Chris: Yeah.

Ghenet: And the detail, the way that he explains it is just so matter of fact, like it’s just the most normal– 

Chris: Yeah, so funny. 

Ghenet: [laughs] The most normal thing.

Chris: Yeah.

Ghenet: Like this happens all the time. 

Chris: [laughs] It makes perfect sense. 

Ghenet: Yeah, it does. It really does. It’s just one of those things, I was like, “Wait, what? Hold on, what?”

Chris: Yeah. 

Ghenet: I need to pause it. Actually, I was like, “Hold on,” and I read that whole paragraph out to my husband, and we both were just cackling over it because it’s just the way that he’s just like, “Oh, yeah, well, I guess you better hope that you don’t get a guard who decides to put on the rubber gloves,” and you’re just like–

Chris: [laughs] “Hold on.” 

[laughter] 

Ghenet: It’s the frankness with which he talks about these things that to us seems quite strange. But I suppose to someone in prison in this sort of world that he’s creating like, wouldn’t even bat an eye. 

Chris: Yeah. Well, as well in the book, the guy in the book– because obviously, by the end of the film, we figure out is slightly different. But the guy in the book, as in Andy, was extremely methodical before even going to prison. 

Ghenet: Yeah.

Chris: So, it makes total sense that he would have figured out [whistles] right before–

Ghenet: [laughs] Yeah. Sure did. He was not messing around. 

Chris: But things like that, Ghenet, I was like– that’s what you said before. When I read the book, I was like, “Oh, that clears up some things.” 

Ghenet: Yeah.

Chris: Because you watch the film, and I’ve seen the film a bunch of times where you watch it, and maybe you just don’t twig, it doesn’t click. And then you read like a simple matter-of-fact sentence like that, you like, “Oh, of course. Yeah.” 

Ghenet: All right, that ties it all in together, it doesn’t it?

Chris: That’s how we did it. 

Ghenet: Yeah. But that begins the Andy-Red relationship that starts as a customer and business type relationship. But then, slowly, they just kind of turn into friends.

Chris: I think, Red says he likes him straight away. 

Ghenet: Yes.

Chris: He liked Andy instantly [crosstalk] 

Ghenet: Does he said that in the book or is that in the movie? 

Chris: I think he said that in the book. 

Ghenet: He definitely says in the movie. 

Chris: Yeah. When he says in the film, it’s a slightly different moment. I remember going, “Huh?” [laughs] 

Ghenet: [laughs] 

Chris: Like, “Okay, okay.”

Ghenet: All right, interesting. But that happens a lot with the book, is that there’s things that happen in the end of the story that they put at the start of the– Like, those details that happened, one of the things specifically I’m thinking about is the fresh fish moment. 

Chris: Yes.

Ghenet: When Andy arrives, they were all taking bets, they were doing that ‘fresh fish’ thing. That is like a very small passing detail that happens- 

Chris: Very tiny, yeah.

Ghenet: -towards the end of the book that the fact that they saw that and went, “Let’s take this and actually, make it into more of a–” 

Chris: [crosstalk] like a linear. Linear narrative and– 

Ghenet: Yeah. 

Chris: It helps develop the character as well, that fear of the first night in prison–

Ghenet: Yeah.

Chris: The film does that so well. 

Ghenet: Yeah. 

Chris: The horror with the guy that finally breaks.

Ghenet: Oh, my God, I know. 

Chris: Oh.

Ghenet: It does. It breaks your heart but also, it shows you to just how harder the people who are already there have become and it’s just that great juxtaposition of– They’ve been there a while, this is nothing new, and just seeing how people progress, and this is where they start. But all those people who we see doing that, they were those people who first came in at some point in their life. So, it’s just really interesting that they took that little detail and we’re like, “Cool. We’re just going to add this whole thing just to [crosstalk] of the world. It makes it more real of that.” 

Chris: Yeah, I’m fine. Yeah, for sure. 

Ghenet: Oh, yeah. But Andy doesn’t make a sound. 

Chris: No. [laughs] 

Ghenet: He’s like, “Okay, this is where we are.” We then kind of move on to Andy’s shining moment in May of 1950, when they are retarring the roof of the license plate factory, which is an iconic scene in the book and also in the film. This is when we get introduced to Bill Hadley for the first time. He’s kind of referenced but this is like his first shining moment. We get a lot of detail, I hope, Bill Hadley is. He’s not the warden but he’s like one of the– [crosstalk] 

Chris: Oh, yeah. He’s not the warden. 

Chris: No, he’s not the warden. Norton is the warden later. [laughs] 

Chris: Yeah.

Ghenet: That is a key difference between the books and the film is that, there’s got many more– [crosstalk] 

Chris: I like the way the film cleans that up straightaway. You’ve got the one main bad guard, you’ve got the one warden. It’s nice and clean.

Chris: Yeah. So, they are retarring the roof of the license plate factory, and Andy and Red get picked. Hadley at some point during this thing is talking to his fellow guards about the money that he’s inherited from his brother, and Andy, just puts down his tools, and goes over, and asks if he trusts his wife, and to which I wrote in my notes, “Could have chosen a better opening line there, Andy.” [laughs] 

Chris: [laughs] Yeah. It was so deliberately misleading. 

Ghenet: Yeah. Deliberately misleading. 

Chris: Yeah. It’s like, of course, you’re going to get the back up of somebody who’s such a bully in a prison. “Hey, do you trust your wife?” [laughs] 

Ghenet: [laughs] Yeah. 

Chris: That was good.

Ghenet: But then, they ended up having this conversation, and he’s basically like, “I’ll help you out. I’ll do this for you for free, like, all I ask is some beer for me and my coworkers.” It’s this really great moment where you can tell, A, this is a thing that he has not a lot of knowledge about and he’s like, “Oh, I just want to go do this.” But also, he’s like, “I sort of feel normal.”

Chris: Yeah. 

Ghenet: They say that great thing about, they were sitting there, drinking their beers, and it could have been one of their houses that they were retarring the roof. 

Chris: Exactly. 

Ghenet: And it’s just the strange moment of this little way to feel almost human again, when you’re in this really dehumanizing setting constantly.

Chris: I like the line where he says, “The beer was warm, but it was the best beer he ever heard.” 

Ghenet: Because it’s not just about the beer, is it? It’s about that whole moment. We’ve all had that when you’re having like a crappy day and you’re just like, “I just need to do something that will make me feel human again.” 

Chris: That’ll ground you. 

Ghenet: Yeah.

Chris: I think as well, it’s about the dignity, isn’t it? 

Ghenet: Yeah, absolutely.

Chris: It’s about somebody did something not kind for them, but somebody gave them something just for being human. He doesn’t drink himself. It’s just like, “You know what, just give these guys a beer.”

Ghenet: Yeah, and he’s looking out for them, and that, of course, makes them more amenable to him as a person anyway, curries with the guards, but he was just like, “No, I think I just want to feel a bit normal again.”

Chris: Yeah, totally. 

Ghenet: Yeah, and then that is what ends up happening. They take him out of working in the laundry, and he starts to work in the library where Brooks used to work. But he made parole, and so Andy took over the library. And then, he goes starting to write the letters to get funding because he wants to turn the library into a thing. The way that they take little details in the book and then turn them into characters, like having– [crosstalk] 

Chris: They fleshed him out so well. 

Ghenet: Well, he’s kind of a composite, because also, I think when they first mentioned it, there’s someone else who has [crosstalk] in his cell with him– [crosstalk]  

Chris: They do. [laughs] 

Ghenet: Then, that guy gets released and then the pigeon dies. So, they kind of took that, and then they took Brooks, and they were like, “Let’s just put these together.” But actually, what it does is it reinforces some of these things that Red talks about, particularly, I think the thing with the film is Brooks is the one who’s institutionalized because he’s been there for so long. Again, these are passing details, but they use these passing details to make the story feel richer.

Chris: Yeah, because they do the same with Red’s story at the end. In the book, it’s Red’s story, when he leaves, he gets put in this house, he gets given this job, and so, it’s quite nice that they give that to Brooks first. They give Brooks that ending first, and then it’s repeated later with Red. That was very well done, very well done.

Ghenet: Yeah. It kind of shows you how similar they all are. When you’ve been in this place for so long, your options, what it’s like to go out and the letter that Brooks writes, it’s things that Red talks about in the book. So, the way that they’ve use those things and then obviously, Red echoes them later. But it’s just a fascinating thing, because this is the first time that we meet Brooks. There’s no overlap with them. The reason that Andy gets that job then is because-

Chris: As simple as that.

Ghenet: -[crosstalk] left. He’s been paroled. So, he starts with the letters, and then, he is taken on to help with all of the money schemes, because again, we talked about before, basically, all of the wardens of this prison are corrupt, and they’re all just doing all sorts of things to line their pockets and skimming off the top, and when they figure out that Andy’s good with money, they’re like, “Oh, okay, so, should we just–” [crosstalk] 

Chris: Imagine, imagine how valuable you become if you’re that guy. [laughs] Imagine -[crosstalk] prison. 

Ghenet: Literally. 

Chris: How valuable you are when you say, “Hi, I can help you all be richer.”

Ghenet:  Yeah, literally. And they’re all just like, “Ah.”

Chris: It’s interesting how it took his money and being good with money to get, I know we’ve not discussed it yet, but get the sisters, the gang of rapists who get– It takes the warden to get them off his back rather than– not the warden sorry, the guard rather than because I would have thought when he got the guys the beers that might have helped as well. I thought they might have been a bunch of tough guys who could have been like, “You leave our Andy alone.” But that never really happened. So, it’s interesting how– [crosstalk] They didn’t really have much sway against other prisoners. It was only the guards who kind of had sway. That was interesting.

Ghenet: There’s a real power dynamic there and you’re exactly right. It’s literally not until he is able to make that impression on the guards, they’re like, “Oh,” and then they start paying attention to what’s been happening because what are the other prisoners going to do? 

Chris: True.

Ghenet: They’re not really going to be able to do anything. But yeah, it’s really interesting to see how that shift happens, and then because he’s curried this favor with the guards now, then he’s able to just keep his cell on his own for a bit, except for there’s a period of eight months where he has a cellmate, who’s like, “Yeah, Andy is really nice, but that cell is like really cool.” There’s a really bad draft. You’re just like–

Chris: That is one of the is juicy little tidbits of information ever. When Red says in the book, “And you know, in the future, I realized the importance of him saying, ‘yeah, there’s a real draft in that cell,” it was like, “Oh, it’s so delicious. So, delicious.”

Ghenet: Yeah, it is. It’s one of those things as well, where like, had you not seen the film, if you’d only been reading this, you would have done the same thing [crosstalk] 

Chris: [crosstalk] 

Ghenet: That’s weird. But then until you get to the end, but obviously having seen the film, I was like, “He’s already digging.” 

Chris: Yeah. 

Ghenet: In my head, I was getting really excited about it, that he must have been so stressed those eight months where he’s like, “Can I please just not have a roommate so I can just keep–?” He had to take an eight-month break from– [crosstalk] 

Chris: I know that Red says in the book, “But I cannot imagine the stress [laughs] of digging a tunnel in a little cell, you transferred at any time where anybody could find it, and then you lost it, and then they put someone in your cell, and it’s just like, ‘Oh, please stay away from this drafty poster.'” [laughs] 

Ghenet: Yes. 

Chris: Yeah. There’s is no rippling– [crosstalk]

Ghenet: Hope it was just not flapping in the [crosstalk] one night like, “Woo.” 

Chris: Yeah, exactly. So, funny. Oh. 

Ghenet: So, then, we come to the posters. They have a very in length discussion about all of the posters that he has in his room, because it started with Rita Hayworth, and then, it was that famous photo of Marilyn from The Seven Year Itch, which is [crosstalk], and then Jayne Mansfield, and then some English actress that Red couldn’t remember the name of, then Raquel Welch, and then Linda Ronstadt who I don’t actually remember– [crosstalk] 

Chris: I think, she’s an American country singer. Maybe not country, but I think she’s an American singer for sure.

Ghenet: And then, we learned that by 1963, it is Norton, who we all know and love from the film, who is now the warden, who’s come in, and that’s why he had the roommate for eight months, because the warden was like, “No, no. We don’t do that. Oh, oh, wait, sorry. I take it back.”

Chris: Yeah. We don’t do people favors. We don’t do that. 

Ghenet: Yeah. [laughs] Literally, when he figures out who Andy is, he’s like, “All right, okay, I take it back. You can have the cell all to yourself now. That’s fine.” He starts his inside-out program which is yet another– It’s basically like he’s using the prisoners on [crosstalk] labor and it’s just–

Chris: And he is reaping the benefits. 

Ghenet: [crosstalk] pockets with the profit. 

Chris: I have to say that’s a really clever title. 

Ghenet: Yeah, big time. 

Chris: What a great name. [laughs] 

Ghenet: Yeah, he was really proud of himself. He patted himself on the back. He was like, [crosstalk] 

Chris: That is a good title, that’s a good pun.

Ghenet: And then we find out about Tommy Williams who comes to Shawshank in 1962. Andy helps him get his high school degree, and then you kind of learn that he was there for a longer period of time, Tommy, and then he and Andy kind of become friendly, and then Tommy hears a rumor about what Andy’s in for, and then he starts asking everyone else. So, there’s this conversation about why Andy’s actually in Shawshank. Then, Tommy makes the big reveal, ta-ta-da, he knows who did it for real. 

Chris: Yeah. 

Ghenet: So, he basically tells the story about how his old cellmate admitted that he was the one who killed Andy’s wife and the golf pro, and that he was laughing about it. Andy loses his mind, goes to Norton, who is having none of it. Norton’s like, “We’re not even–” [crosstalk] 

Chris: This to me is the perfect kind of horror film. That entire scene is just– Ah, things like this are real horror stories for me. This guy is like, “Yes, look, I know the truth. I can get out. All you need to do is make a phone call.” The other guy goes, “No, I don’t think we’ll be doing that.” He’s just like, “No, don’t you understand? The guy just wants to impress you. You’ve made a good impression on him. He wants to impress you.” He’s like, “Well, regardless, let’s at least chase this up.” “No, let’s not do that.” Then, he’s just like, “I’m not insane.” 

Ghenet: Yeah. [laughs] 

Chris: Oh, it’s horrible. Because I think I’ve forgotten this little bit, but as a reader, your stomach is turning in knots going, “Oh, no, you got to help him out. Come on.” Then you’re like, “Uh-oh, this slowly dawned on you that. Oh, he needs him because he’s corrupt.” It’s just like, “Oh, God.” 

Ghenet: Well, it’s also a very lovely commentary on the justice system in the US anyway, because it is actually quite notoriously difficult to-

Chris: Oh, it’s terrifying.

Ghenet: -to get out of prison when you’re innocent. But that’s a whole other rabbit hole we could just go.

Chris: That’s a whole other podcast. 

[laughter] 

Ghenet: Yeah, literally. That’s a whole other podcast. Norton is like, “No, no,” but he does it with a smile on his face and the way that he’s like– because they talk about how he’s a very religious man, and he gives everyone Bible and stuff. So, he’s like, “Oh, no, this is what God had planned for you. You are where you’re supposed to be.” 

Chris: [laughs] 

Ghenet: It’s just like, “What?”

Chris: Speaking of the Bible, and God, and everything, I love the fact that in the film anyway, he has the framed picture of a quote from the Bible. 

Ghenet: No, [crosstalk] as well. 

Chris: How is it covering the safe where all his corrupt money goes into. Brilliant.

Ghenet: Yeah. [laughs] I don’t know if they specify in the book that’s where the safe is but they do mention that he has that thing that his wife [crosstalk] But that was a brilliant detail. 

Chris: Nice touch.

Ghenet: Yeah. The first thing that he notices that Andy, when he goes to visit him– in the film is that Andy’s holding the Bible– 

Chris: Close to his chest. 

Ghenet: Yeah. But he’s holding it because that’s where his little–

Chris: Guy’s perfect. 

Ghenet: His little rock hammer and it’s such a detail that you go back, and you’re like, “Oh, I see. Okay, I get it. I get it, of course.” So, yes, Andy gets very upset. He calls Norton obtuse, and then Norton puts him in the hole for a very, very, very long time. There’s this other detail that they talk about. When Norton puts people in the hole, they call it a grain and drain, because he’s like, “You’re only allowed to have bread and water,” that seems– 

Chris: Well, it’s pretty– 

Ghenet: That seems like torture a little bit. 

Chris: Yeah, like zero nutrients. Zero nutrients. The gross thing in the book is that, I think, Red even says the idea is that people kind of come out, and their teeth are softer and looser, because they’ve not been, “Oh,” and they just kind of shows you like how low nutrients, any substance they get because that literally just bread and water.

Ghenet: Yeah, and imagine being on bread and water, that’s all you’ve eaten for like a month, that’s a very long time. Andy, he’s struggling. So, he ends up in the hole, and then even after he comes out, he continues to try to get Norton to carry on. But Norton is still just like, “Nope, no.”

Chris: Yeah, we won’t be doing that. 

Ghenet: And then, we find out that Norton had Tommy transferred to another prison.

Chris: Yes. Send him to a nice, low-scale prison where you could still see his wife and his family at weekends, that kind of thing. Just to get out him of the way. Just to clear him off.

Ghenet: They dangled that fish and he was like, “Ah, yeah, sure, cool.” Things kind of go back to normal, kind of because they seem like they go back to normal, but you get the sense that their– [crosstalk] 

Chris: Andy isn’t changing– [crosstalk]  

Ghenet: Certainly.

Chris: Andy knows what he wants to do. Andy is now more resolute than ever that he doesn’t want to go through the true legal way. He’s like, “Screw that. I’m going my own way and making fools of all of you.”

Ghenet: Yeah. He and Red have this conversation where they talk about Mexico. They talk about that place that he always wants to go. He has that really great thing about, they say that the Pacific Ocean has no memory, and that’s where he wants to spend the rest of his life is a warm place that has no memory, and there’s something so– just that sentence on its own, just sounds so soothing. 

Chris: We’ve not even got horrible murder in our past. [laughs] 

Ghenet: Yeah. It just sounds really nice. But we’re not escaping any trauma. We just want to go to Mexico. 

Chris: Yeah. [laughs] 

Ghenet: So, imagine for them. He then also discloses that before he came to jail, Andy got his ducks in a row. He was very methodical about this. So, he had a friend basically create a fake identity for him, gave him his money to invest in things, and he’s been raking in this money under this fake– 

Chris: Amazing.

Ghenet: Yeah, this fake identity, and then he tells him about the access to all of this stuff is literally like a key in a box under a rock in a hay field near Buxton in Maine, and it’s just like, “Okay, that seems–“

Chris: [laughs] That seems a little haphazard. 

Ghenet: Yeah. [laughs] It little seems a little bit like a lot of things could go wrong. 

Chris: Yeah. [laughs] A lot of things could go wrong around here.

Ghenet: It’s a brilliant detail. But thinking about the logistics of that, there couldn’t have been any other way that he– [crosstalk] 

Chris: Anything could have happened. He touches on this in the book, of course, but yeah, all it takes is some construction work, or some planning, or anything, freak weather, and hundreds of thousands of dollars are gone. 

[laughter] 

Ghenet: Because this key is unfindable.

Chris: Yeah. 

Ghenet: Like, “Ooh.” But then, Andy is like, “Don’t worry, I’ve been keeping an eye on construction news. So, I’ve been watching it.” 

Chris: You’d be a nervous wreck. 

Ghenet: You would. You’d be panicking. And then, they have this conversation about how this is his plan. He wants to go to Mexico, and he’s going to need a man to help him get things. Then, Red has this discussion with him about being institutionalized that he wouldn’t be able to exist on the outside. Then, we get a bit of background about other people who have escaped from Shawshank, but this is prior to him disclosing that Andy has in fact escaped.

Chris: When that happens in the book is wonderful. Bearing in mind, you and I have both seen the film, and I imagine most people have by the time they get to the book but–

Ghenet: Yeah.

Chris: Even though we know what happens, that part of the book because you don’t know when it’s coming in the book. Because it just comes out of the blue. He just kind of– it’s like, slightly new paragraph, fadoosh, “And on this day, Andy escaped.” It’s so final, you know, there’s no two ways about it like, Andy escaped, and the hairs on your arms go up, and you’re just like, “Ah, he made it,” because it’s not like you try to escape all [crosstalk] the day. It’s like, yeah, that’s the day he escaped and you’re just [crosstalk] your buzzing.

Ghenet: He’s gone.

Chris: Even though, you know about something anyway, so well done. It’s just so well. 

Ghenet: But I love that he takes the time to be like, “It’s not unknown that people have escaped from prison. This one guy just walked off.”

Chris: Brilliant.

Ghenet: This other guy just did this other thing and you’re just like–

Chris: Right. Ghenet, Ghenet, did I get this wrong? Does he say, I tried to reread as I go. There was a guy who’s on one of those little vehicles that paint markings into the floor, and he just said he drove out. [laughs] 

Ghenet: Yeah. It’s not a vehicle. I think it’s like a little push cart- 

Chris: Ah, okay. 

Ghenet: -sort of thing that they use that does chalk lines. And essentially, when the changing of the guard was happening, the doors were open and all guys were coming in, and he was just like– [crosstalk] 

Chris: That’s so funny. He even said that he drew a chalk line on his way out, which is just hilarious. 

Ghenet: Yeah. There’s a chalk line, and then when they realized and they followed the line, and just the found the cart on its side, and he was nowhere to be seen.

Chris: It’s brilliant. So much human, this book is good. Yeah. 

Ghenet: But I think he makes a point of saying that like, these ways that these other guys literally just took advantage of a moment and just walked off. None of that would have worked for Andy. He’s a popular prisoner. Everybody knows him. He’s always got an eye on him, like he wouldn’t have been able to just– 

Chris: Yeah, sneak out.

Ghenet: Well, obviously, outside of the way that he did in fact, sneak out, but not being able to just casually stroll away. He has to be a bit more methodical about it. So, then we find out that, ta-ta-da, as you said, Andy escaped in 1975. They called for the cells to open at 6 AM but they don’t actually search his cell until 6 PM. It was a really interesting note that they just they assumed lots of other things had happened.

Chris: Yeah. The book, I think, explains that quite well. It made me be on the side of the guards anyway, where it’s like it doesn’t occur to them. They look inside the cell. All they do is they see that the cell is empty. He’s not there. So, then of course, your mind then goes, “Right, search the prison.” 

Ghenet: Yeah.

Chris: He must be hiding somewhere in the prison because he’s clearly not in his cell simple as that. I think it’s the beauty of the fact that all that is covering the escape hole in the wall is as a poster. Nothing’s jutting out. It’s not like he’s hiding behind out a picture frame. It’s just these clean lines everywhere. It’s like, “Well, he’s not here. So, he must be in the prison.” I was like, “Yep, sold. I’m on your side, guards.” 

Ghenet: Yeah. [laughs] 

Chris: It was very reassuring that they didn’t check until 6 PM as well in the book because in your head, you are like, “Oh, then he’s long gone.” [laughs] You don’t need to worry [crosstalk] he’s gone. Okay. He’s not being caught, good.

Ghenet: He has like a 20-hour head start. 

Chris: Yeah.

Ghenet: [crosstalk] like, “What are you going to do?” 

Chris: Yeah, he’s gone. 

Ghenet: [laughs] Bye. Never to be seen again. So, they go search the prison. They locked down the prison. And then, Red has this great thing where he just loses his cool and just cannot stop laughing about this whole situation, because he just finds it’s so hilarious, and they sent him to solitary, and that whole time, he’s just laughing. Just laughing about the situation. Obviously, then, you see Norton go into the cell, and he’s really pissed off, and he breaks down the poster, and then they find the hole, and they’re like, “Oh, this is a lot worse than we thought it was.” 

Chris: [crosstalk] kind go, “Oh, fine.” 

Ghenet: It’s the lightbulb moment. Then they have to find someone who’s like a similar build to Andy to climb a hole to investigate, and then you get this really great interaction, and everyone can hear it. So, everyone who’s on that block can hear what’s happening. He goes through the hole and immediately like, “God, it stinks in here. It smells.” He keeps saying it over and over like, “what is this? It smells like shit. It smells like shit.” Then he has this moment where he goes, “Oh, God, it is shit,” and then he loses all of his food that have in a day by being violently [crosstalk].” 

Chris: That’s just a good right point. 

Ghenet: That is what sets Red off. Red cannot stop laughing. Yeah, it’s a farce. This whole situation is such a farce. Then, he has that really great line where he’s like, “Andy Dufresne, who had waded in shit and came out clean on the other side.”

Chris: Yes. An amazing line. 

Ghenet: It’s just such an iconic line that’s in the book and in the film. 

Chris: Yeah, quite right. 

Ghenet: But yeah, that is the classic moment. Then, Norton ends up resigning after it. 

Chris: In shame. 

Ghenet: Yeah. Then, you have a bit more of exposition just about what has been happening since Andy left because obviously, Red is still in prison. Did he get a postcard? 

Chris: He gets a blank postcard. 

Ghenet: I keep doing that thing where I’m like [crosstalk] 

Chris: It’s in book. So, he gets just a blank postcard from the area, I think, Texas, basically the border. 

Ghenet: Yeah.

Chris: It’s just addressed to Red. There’s not even any kind of coding on it. It’s just a postcard from Texas. Just to give him that wink.

Ghenet: Just to give him that little wink. Then, he talks a lot about what he thinks might have happened and his thoughts about why Andy did things this way or that way, which I think is really interesting, because again, it’s all entirely speculation, like we have no confirmation what exactly Andy did. We just know that there was a hole in his cell wall, there was a broken pipe, and he’s gone. So, everything that we hear about it is literally just Red going, “Well, he could have done this or he could have done this, but knowing Andy the way I do, I think maybe he did this.” It’s like, “All right, okay.” 

Chris: It’s cool as well how– because it’s just his version and his speculation. The film does this slightly better, I think. But in the book, because it is only his view, is that there’s a hole in the wall, Andy is missing, and we know that his prison uniform was found at the end of the sewer pipe in the river. That’s all we know. That was just like, “Yeah, fair enough.” Then of course, they touch on it a bit better in the film, but like, “Yeah, genius.” So, all Red knows is that a naked Andy was running around in the middle of the night or in the middle of the morning, however long it took, and that’s all he knows. But now he’s is in next– 

Ghenet: [crosstalk] somehow made it. So, then, Red goes through all of this, and then eventually, we find out that he’s been paroled after 38 years in prison, and he is working as a bag boy, and he is staying in this halfway house or something. Essentially, it’s like what we were talking about before with the story with Brooks. It’s all the same stuff with Brooks that he’s there. Then, Red has been doing this for a while. He talks about how he’s struggling and how he thinks about buying a gun or robbing the place where he works, or something just to go back to a place where it feels normal. But the only thing that is stopping him is thinking about Andy and he starts talking about the hay field, and how he can’t stop thinking about the hay field. So, on his days off, Red begins to just sort of venture through Maine, and find hay fields that match the description, and then, eventually, he finds a box, the one Andy was talking about. 

Chris: The rock. [laughs] 

Ghenet: Yeah, he finds the rock. And he only kind of vaguely describes it to him. He didn’t actually really give him any clear like, “So, you go here, and then there’s this thing, and then there’s the thing.” He just vaguely describes it to him.

Chris: What does he say? He says something like that, “You’ll see a black granite rock that has no place to be in Maine.” I really like that bit actually.

Ghenet: Yeah.

Chris: It’s like you’ll know which one it is because it doesn’t belong there. I really like the simplicity of that.

Ghenet: He doesn’t give him particularly clear instructions as to which hay field it is. So, he’s just on his days off just going for walks in the countryside, finding hay fields, trying to see if they’ve got walls. He buys himself a compass, and then eventually, finds the box that has a letter in it and some money, and then he just decides to get on a bus. That is the end–

Chris: He breaks his parole. [laughs] 

Ghenet: Yes, he does. He breaks his parole. So, it’s about this time when we find out that he has been paroled that he talks about like– Because he kind of takes a break, and it’s almost like an afterthought that he’s come back to it, and he’s like, “Oh, by the way, I’m out of prison now. I was slightly worried about how– because I’ve written all this down. I was slightly worried about how I was going to get it out. So, I did the same thing Andy did with his $500 and here we are.” 

Chris: [laughs] 

Ghenet: And you’re like– 

Chris: “What am I reading?” [laughs] 

Ghenet: Yeah. I had to read it. I was like, “Wait, hold on.” Does that mean what I’m thinking? Yes, yes, it does. Okay, got it.” Then, he carries on the story, and then it ends. It’s slightly ambiguous where you know that he’s on his way to see if he can find him, but you don’t really know, and he just talks about he hopes that the Pacific is [crosstalk] his dreams and he hopes that he can see his friend. It’s just like– it’s such a nice note to finish on. Obviously, a bit different than the film, but that’s the end of the novella itself. Then, yeah, having read it, I’m so glad that I have read it now. 

Chris: Same.

Ghenet: Yeah. I literally read it in two days because I was like, “Oh, my God. Oh, my God. Oh, my God,” I was so into it. 

Chris: Yes. Same. Exactly, exactly. 

Ghenet: I love how it adds so many more details. Then, how it’s been adapted into the film is actually really true to that, which I think was amazing. 

Hey, guys, I’m cutting the episode here. But don’t worry, Chris and I will be back in two weeks’ time with more chat all about Shawshank. The Book is Better is hosted, edited, and produced by me, Ghenet. You can find us on Instagram @bookbetterpodcast and on Twitter @bookbetterpod. You can also get in touch with me by emailing bookbetterpodcast@gmail.com. I love hearing from you. So, please feel free to send me your thoughts. 

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