S1, E08 – Harry Potter and the Sorcerer’s Stone: The Film

Full Episode Transcript

Ghenet: Hey, hey, it’s Ghenet. Before we jump into today’s episode, I just wanted to say that if you are loving the podcast, make sure that you’ve connected with me on all of our social media platforms. We are on Instagram, Twitter, and now on Facebook, and you can find all of the links to those in the show notes. Come and join the conversation.

I also just want to add a quick trigger warning to this episode. As of last week, we are continuing our conversation all about The Perks of Being a Wallflower, which has some heavy subject matter. If you need to skip this episode to protect your wellbeing, please make sure you do that.

Now, on to the episode. Happy listening. 

[The Book Was Better theme]

Beth: [crosstalk] I’m not going to be coming out of my feelings anytime soon, because the movie affects me so much. So much.

Ghenet: Do you know what I think and this is something that I think is very– When it comes to adapting books to film, I sometimes find that when the person who wrote the book also writes the screenplay, and this is what happens with the film version of The Perks of Being a Wallflower. 

Beth: He directed it, too. 

Ghenet: Stephen Chbosky, I hope I said that correctly. 

Beth: Oh, I don’t know. 

Ghenet: Not only did he write the screenplay, but he also directed it. There’s a lot of power there, and even the changes they make still feel really authentic with. 

Beth: Yes. 

Ghenet: It’s not an interpretation of his work. It is just a continuation of his work. 

Beth: His intentions and the tone are intact entirely- 

Ghenet: Oh, yeah. 

Beth: -in this movie. 

Ghenet: Oh, entirely. 

Beth: I’m reading his bio on the back. I didn’t realize he had written all these adaptations. That’s cool. 

Ghenet: What other adaptations has he wrote? 

Beth: He wrote that adaptation for Rent. 

Ghenet: Did he? 

Beth: Yeah.

Ghenet: interesting. Shame, that movie wasn’t any good. 

Ghenet: But you know what? Of all the movie musicals, it’s my favorite, which it’s a low bar, but here we are. 

Ghenet: [laughs] That’s fine. 

Beth: I guess the recent Beauty and the Beast too.

Ghenet: Did he write that as well? 

Beth: Yeah. That’s cool. 

Ghenet: Teaming up with Emma Watson again. 

Beth: Yep. 

Ghenet: He also wrote– Oh, what did he write the screenplay for? Wonder. That’s another book that I love in an adaptation that makes me cry every time I watch it. 

Beth: Oh, I haven’t read or seen that. I have to get on it. 

Ghenet: He was involved in– I don’t know if he wrote it, but yeah. Maybe that will be the next [crosstalk] too. 

Beth: Just a series of emotional books. We can either do that or we can contain Logan Lerman train and do Percy Jackson. But I will not have anything nice to say about that movie. So, maybe not if you want to keep this positive. 

[laughter] 

Ghenet: Oh, my God, okay. 

Ghenet: We should wait until Disney+ comes out with the TV show and then I’ll have nice things to say. Anyway. 

Ghenet: Okay.

Beth: [laughs] 

Ghenet: The Perks of Being a Wallflower. But yes, I do think that makes a difference what we’re saying is like the intention remains, and it’s the same with The Princess Bride or there’s other work because he wrote the book, but then he also wrote the screenplay. Some of that stuff I have to change things. It makes sense in a way, whereas I think whoever’s written the book, the author of the book is not involved or something like that. Sometimes, I think– obviously, you can’t do that every single time. But some authors and some screenwriters get it better than others. 

Beth: It’s a special talent that he understands how to make a book work and then also how to make the screenplay work. 

Ghenet: Yeah. 

Beth: Because they can never be the same. They are obviously two different mediums, you need different things. It blows my mind that he has that ability. Any writers blow my mind because I am so not good at writing. Anyone who can do it–

Ghenet: [laughs] Yeah. 

Beth: –I’m impressed by but to be able to make that shift, I will always be super impressed by his ability.

Ghenet: So impressed by. Yeah, I think particularly, with this film that I think I’ve read in some interview something where he wrote it for personal reasons. He didn’t write it for to be anything but didn’t realize that it was anything until it became what it was. Obviously, then, I think initially it was going to be turned into a movie with some famous director. I want to say John Hughes [crosstalk] 

Beth: That feels right. 

Ghenet: But then, he died before he did a screenplay. Then, Stephen Chbosky was like, “I got it.” 

Beth: Good. 

Ghenet: So, wrote and directed it, which is also quite unusual. You don’t see often someone who’s written and directed it also be the author of the book it’s based on. It starts with some typewriter sound and then you’re driving through a tunnel. Apparently, John Malkovich was a producer, which I thought was interesting. 

Beth: Oh, interesting. I missed that part. 

Ghenet: Yeah. Because I was just watching all the credits. The credits come up because I was like, “Oh, they did it.” That typewriter font, that’s cute. Little details. Then, it’s starts with Charlie sitting at his desk and he’s handwriting a letter. One of the things I think is really interesting is obviously, you get the sense that it’s early 90s. In the book, specifically, all of the letters are dated. In the film, they don’t really talk about the dates of things. But it does feel really timeless.

Ghenet: Yes. It’s very clearly the 90s, but also, not [crosstalk] 

Ghenet: It could be anytime.

Beth: Yeah, which I love that.

Ghenet: It does. Yeah. It feels quite– it feels a little bit ambiguous. Obviously, there’s some things like he’s drinking RC soda, and you’re just like, “Ha-ha, that’s not accepted for a while,” and even how they’re dressing and stuff. But it’s still feels it could be of any time. He’s writing this letter, and he’s talking about how he’s starting school, and he’s walking through the hallways, and they’re doing that freshmen toad hazing thing. I literally just wrote “Freshmen toad, ah, high school.” That’s how I feel about high school. 

Beth: Mm-hmm. Yep, high school sucked. 

Ghenet: Then one of the things that they do, so they show people know Charlie, but they don’t really speak to him. One of the ways that they show this is when he’s in the cafeteria, and it’s something that we get the sense of through the book, but it establishes that straightaway. When he’s sitting there by himself reading, and he’s looking around, he looks at Susan. Susan’s with her friends, and she’s laughing, and she makes eye contact with him and stops smiling for a minute and then just keeps going. Then, Brad does the same thing. Brad’s talking to his friend, and then he looks at him and takes a moment, and then just keeps talking to his friends. It establishes straight off the bat that people know about Charlie, they just don’t know how to handle them and it immediately sets that up. 

It’s something that’s recurring where you see people, they’re doing something and they’re looking. They see him looking and they’re a bit uncomfortable for a minute, and then they have to move past it. Then, we cut to Patrick in front of the class, their shop class, and he’s making fun of the teacher. Charlie says this thing about how he thought it was nice because he was just trying to make everyone feel comfortable and you’re just like, “Oh.”

Beth: That scene, I love the commentary on the movie of, he’s the one senior who chose to make fun of a teacher and not the freshmen. 

Ghenet: Yeah.

Beth: I love that. That just sets up everything you love about Patrick from the get go. 

Ghenet: Yeah, it does. Then, we get the moment where the teacher comes in and calls him Patty-Cakes, and Patrick says, “Either call me Patrick or call me nothing.” It’s a different choice to make it happen in the moment because obviously, in the book, we hear about these things retroactively. We hear about this thing that happened when he was a freshman and it stuck, as opposed to seeing things in real time. 

Beth: Yeah.

Ghenet: And yet, the tone of the film somehow stays exactly the same. 

Beth: That is interesting to me, for that and also because in the book, it’s Patrick’s peers, who give him that nickname. In the movie, having it be an adult and a teacher, who is someone that you should be able to trust to not mock you in that way–

Ghenet: Yeah. 

Beth: –it is keeping with the tone but also hits much harder.

Ghenet: It’s the same in that one person said it as a joke and then everyone else doesn’t let it go. 

Beth: Right. Yes. I love the change but it affected me differently to have an adult creating it.

Ghenet: Yeah, fair enough. But then, his response to be like, “How did something with your freshman shop teacher– Oh, guys. [crosstalk].”

Beth: [laughs] Yeah. You can’t really knock Patrick down, which I love. 

Ghenet: No. People can’t get in his drive, especially, from a teacher. When other people call him that, he’s just like– 

Beth: Yeah. Yeah, it’s really funny. But it’s nice to see that happen in the moment, because it shows us more of Patrick’s character than just hearing about, “Oh, so, everyone used to call him Nothing because this thing,” whereas that’s how we got right information in the book, to see things happen in real time, I think is it’s really nice. Then, we get to English class and Paul Rudd being professor. I think, Paul Rudd, I have a lot of feelings about him as a human in general, but him in this movie, the second I heard that’s who they cast as the teacher, I straight away was like, “Yes.”

Beth: Yes. 

Ghenet: Absolutely, yes.

Beth: He is wonderful in literally everything. But the two roles to me that I’m like Paul Rudd’s the only option for this role is Ant Man and The Perks of Being a Wallflower. 

Ghenet: Yeah.

Beth: There’s literally no one else in the world that I want to see as Bill. No one.

Ghenet: He’s so good. He’s so, so good. It’s quite funny when he’s asking the class questions and he is like, “Who invented the Cliff Hanger, blah, blah, blah” because he wrote a novel? Charlie writes the answer. Then one girl’s like,– 

Ghenet and Beth: “Shakespeare?” 

Ghenet: He’s like, “Good answer.” He didn’t write novels, though. [crosstalk] 

Beth: I love that that establishes him as like, “I’m not going to be the teacher that mocks you.”

Ghenet: Yeah. 

Beth: [crosstalk] for trying. 

Ghenet: He is really nice about it. But in his head, you know his soul was crying. 

Beth: Crying a little bit. 

Ghenet: [laughs] 

Beth: A little bit, yeah. 

Ghenet: Then when he says that think about the box office and they all start shouting things. Some of the things that they’re shouting, you can hear some of them and one of them is like, “OfficeMax.” 

Beth: Mm-hmm.

Ghenet: You’re like, “No.” 

Beth: You can see in his eyes, his soul is dimming [laughs] quickly. 

Ghenet: Sure is. Then, it’s after the first day of school and they’re all having dinner. Ponytail Derek comes over, and [laughs] it’s so bad. 

Beth: It’s a lot. 

Ghenet: I wrote in my notes, “Ponytail Derek comes over for dinner. Does Candace even like him, LOL?” 

Beth: [laughs] 

Ghenet: Yeah, because literally, he’s speaking. He says that because he says that thing about like, “You really find yourself in freshman year.” Candace is just like–

Beth: [laughs] Yeah. 

Ghenet: The side eye. And then also, the dad is just like, “Thanks, Derek.” It’s so funny. But yeah, you get to see– you’re literally just like, “Does she even like him? What?”

Beth: No.

Ghenet: Just not even love him. Then, she’s saying goodbye after dinner, and he gives her the mixtape, and then as he’s driving away, she’s like– 

Beth: He’s not even driving away. He’s in the driveway. It’s just like, He can see you. 

Ghenet: He’s like, “Are you sure?” She’s like, “He gives me one every week.” I’m like, “I want my boyfriend to make me make– [crosstalk] That’s great. 

Beth: But maybe not Ponytail Derek. 

Ghenet: Yeah, maybe not Ponytail Derek. Then it cuts to a scene of Charlie listening to the mixtape and you just hear his voice on the stereo going, “Hi, babe. It’s me. This one’s sad but it reminded me of you.” And it’s Asleep by the Smiths and I was just like her.

Beth: [laughs] 

Ghenet: Then as the song continues to play, they show more scenes of Charlie in high school and him being alone, and I was just like, “This is a mood. This is the whole mood.” This song and these feelings like, “Oh, man.” Then, we got to the football game. Charlie sees Patrick, and he sees some girls walk by him and call him Nothing, and Patrick’s just over it. Charlie is like, “Hi, Patrick.” 

Beth: It’s really cute. 

Ghenet: He’s just like, “Hey, you in the shop class, thanks for calling me, Patrick.” 

Beth: It’s cute and it’s sweet, but there’s also this element of bravery. Charlie is so brave. 

Ghenet: Yes. 

Beth: The ways that he forces himself to participate, and I wish I had a bravery at 15, 16. It’s so lovely to see. 

Ghenet: It is really lovely to see. You get the sense, it’s starting the foundation of his and Bill’s relationship, because he says to him after the first class like, “You should try to participate.” He says, “I think about making friends.” He tries to reason with him on a human level but yeah, you can see he’s steeling himself. He sits down, he turns around, he sees Patrick, he faces the football game again, and he’s just like, “Okay, baby steps. Let’s go sit.”

Beth: Yeah. I know we’re going to get there, but it happens again during the homecoming dance. I love that moment where he’s just like– I mean this isn’t video. You know the move he makes when he just– [crosstalk] 

Ghenet: Yep, I do. I do.

Beth: [laughs] 

Ghenet: Oh, we’re going to get there. I have so many feelings about the homecoming dance. He speaks to Patrick. He goes and sits with Patrick, and then enter Emma Watson. She is playing Sam. It’s one of those things– 

Beth: No, I was just laughing at your tone, “She is playing Sam.”

Ghenet: For the most part, I like it. No offense to Emma Watson, but this is just how I feel about her in general, where sometimes, I’m like, “This is great.” Then other times, I’m like, “You’re awkward.” 

Beth: I agree. 

Ghenet: She makes a few choices and I’m just like– 

Beth: This is interesting because it’s still early in her career post-Harry Potter. 

Ghenet: Yeah. This was one of her first major film– [crosstalk] 

Beth: Yeah. [crosstalk] Emma Watson. There are definitely moments early on in the film that– Yeah, it’s awkward and it’s interesting to watch her– 

Ghenet: It’s not just early on in the film. I think it’s throughout the film, there’s a few moments where [crosstalk] 

Beth: Yeah. But overall as she gets deeper and deeper into Sam, I forgave the awkward [crosstalk] more and more. 

Ghenet: Yeah, as you go on in the film for sure, but this first bit. And then also, there’s moments when you can tell she’s struggling with the accent a little bit. 

Beth: Oh, yeah. Fair enough. [crosstalk] 

Ghenet: Again. Yeah, I’m not going to like– [crosstalk] 

Beth: The American accent is really hard for some people. [laughs] 

Ghenet: It is really hard for some people but yeah, there’s some moments where it is really great. They go to dinner afterwards, and they’re having a bit of banter, and Charlie is like, “You guys seem really happy together. How long have you been boyfriend, girlfriend?” They’re just like– One of the things I think the film does so well is portray the relationship that Patrick and Sam have, and the way in which they bring Charlie into that, which you can’t really get in the book in the same way because of the way that the book is told. Because Charlie’s a very passive viewer but because we’re actively watching these things happen in real time, it changes and you see their interaction. It’s really funny when they’re like, “So, what do you want to be when you get out of here?” He’s like, “Well, my Aunt Helen said that I should be a writer,” and then Patrick is immediately like, “Write about us.” 

Beth: Yeah. 

Ghenet: You can call it Slut and the Falcon. You’re just like, “What? What are you talking about?” 

Beth: It makes no sense but I love it. 

Ghenet: It makes no sense. Then, the weird reply about the weird bulimia joke– [crosstalk] 

Beth: I’ve never really gotten that. It feels like a weird bit of improv that they just kept in.

Ghenet: Yeah, it does a little bit. It’s also like, “Are we making fun of bulimia because that’s–?” 

Beth: I don’t know. 

Ghenet: I don’t know. Yeah, that’s where I always skip over that bit. The rest of it is quite funny because they’re adorable. Even when she’s like, “Oh, you love [unintelligible 00:15:50], right?” He’s like, “Yeah, they’re great.” They’re just like, not a band, but moving on. 

Beth: [laughs] Yeah. That’s the beautiful moment of like, “It’s not judgment.” There’s no judgment there. That could so easily have been snide. Oh, I love it. 

Ghenet: Charlie comes home and sees Ponytail Derek hit Candace. Then she goes outside, they’re saying goodbye, and then Charlie has this flashback of Aunt Helen coming home, and you don’t really know the situation. You just see her walk in and be like, “Oh, you guys look so nice. You’re all dressed up and da, da, da.” Then, it’s on the door, and then Candace comes through the door, and it’s the same shot setup, the way that they tailor that. Then, he and Candice have the conversation on the stairs and she says something how he’s never going to hit her again. Then, Charlie’s like, “Like Aunt Helen’s boyfriends?” Boy, is that a loaded statement because she literally is just like– 

Ghenet: I think it’s a lovely moment to show that his family forgets that he sees. 

Ghenet: Yeah, everything. 

Beth: Yeah.

Ghenet: Then, we got to the homecoming dance. something a bit more happy. We get to the homecoming dance, and everyone’s there, and Charlie’s against the wall to himself. A song comes on. It’s Come on Eileen, which I can’t listen to that song and not want to dance. 

Beth: Right.

Ghenet: Don’t know if you know that about me.

Beth: Or think about this movie. It is so linked to this movie for me. 

Ghenet: It’s so good. That moment where she’s like, “Oh, my God, they’re playing good music.” He’s like, “They are.” Then, they’re like, “Living room routine. Living room routine.” It’s such a little thing. Obviously, that was not in the book, but it’s such a brilliant way to show the two of them, and their relationship, and this– 

Beth: They are best friend. 

Ghenet: Yeah, they are. They are best friends, and they support each other, and it’s so entertaining. Then, they’re dancing, and they’re having a ball, and you can tell, and it’s the bit where the fun slows down. You see Charlie, and he’s like, “I’m going to do it. I’m going to do it. I’m going to try.” And it’s two steps when he literally just starts going, “Ah.” 

Beth: [laughs] Yeah. It’s so awkward and you love him so much. 

Ghenet: It’s so awkward. To the beat of the music and you can tell he is shitting himself.

Beth: Yes. Then, just the absolute excitement that Patrick and Sam have that Charlie has joined them is– oh–

Ghenet: Yeah, just the way that they embrace him so fully and immediately are just like, “Welcome,” and it’s so good. It just that scene just puts the biggest smile on my face literally, [crosstalk] everytime I watch this movie. 

Beth: I love that scene.

Ghenet: Then they go to a party at Bob’s and Charlie gives him a brownie. He is so– [crosstalk] 

Beth: I just want to say, I love Bob. In the book, I’m like, “Yeah, he is fine.” In the movie, I love him– [crosstalk] 

Ghenet: He’s not really a character though in the book. 

Beth: Yeah, he’s like– [crosstalk] 

Ghenet: Him and Alice are on the periphery in the book, but they are very real in–

Beth: And Bob, just something about him just like, “I just want to hug you. You are wonderful.”

Ghenet: I know. It’s the bit at the Christmas party when he has the bubbles, and he’s just like, “He knows me.”

[laughter] 

Beth: It’s so good.

Ghenet: Bob gives him a brownie, and he gets really stoned, and then he’s on the carpet, and he’s just like, “This carpet is amazing and high school is bullshit. Why do they give letterman jackets to the band? Mary Elizabeth, you’re really going to regret that.” You’re just like, “The word, my man. ” 

Beth: If I ever got to meet Logan Lerman, that’s one of the questions, I’d be like, “Did you improv that or was that written word for word?” because it’s such a natural moment. I don’t know. Oh, so good. 

Ghenet: I feel they both get credit there for writing the screenplay, but also Logan Lerman just having such an incredible understanding of this character. Literally, he is so perfect in this role, and he is everything I see in Charlie. He does it so well that just they are one, the book and the film become [crosstalk] at some point.

Beth: As an actor, there are– I don’t know if you’ve ever experienced this when you’re doing theater, but there are sometimes roles that you get, you just know this person. You just know him or her. 

Ghenet: Yeah.

Beth: You don’t have to dig too deep to build the character. There is something in you that is already that person and that’s what I feel like this role is for Logan Lerman. You can tell how much he loves Charlie. Charlie is a real person to him and it’s beautiful to watch. 

Ghenet: It’s so sweet. Again, he’s very understated and that’s a good thing. We talked about this in the book. Everything, the highs and lows, all of it, because it’s from Charlie’s point of view, it is very understated. It’s not beating anyone over the head with it. Then, even though in those moments where it’s a bit shocking, immediately following this, Sam comes up and is like, “Did you get him stoned? ”  That’s another one of Emma Watson’s very awkward moments. We’re just going to breeze past that to the point where she’s making him a milkshake, and he’s like, “Oh, yeah, my friend, Michael, never liked parties and stuff, because his dad was a big drinker.” She’s like, “Oh, well, where’s Michael this evening?” Just that matter of fact of way where he just says, “Oh, he shot himself last night. Sam, you’re so nice. Where’s the bathroom?” She’s just like– 

Beth: This is my favorite Emma Watson moment in the whole movie. 

Ghenet: Yeah.

Beth: It’s not offensive when I’m like, “There are no words and she doesn’t need them.” The scene where she’s got her eyes down making the milkshake, and she just looks up, and there’s so much understanding in her eyes. It’s my favorite moment of hers in the whole film.

Ghenet: I do think it is interesting that they have that reveal about Michael here when in the book that’s literally the first thing that we read about. I don’t know what it does to the story to move it to this place, but it’s almost a point of recognition for Charlie amongst his peers. When we realize this is the thing that’s happened, it explains everything. We get it as readers at the very start of the story as a way for him to explain everything. But because we’re going on this journey at the same time as all of them as Sam, and Patrick, and Charlie, them finding out and us being there, when they find out is that point of recognition of like, “Okay, this is who he is.”

Beth: I don’t hate it but I’m not completely sold on it. The part that I’m not completely sold on is the part when they go back downstairs, and Patrick joins Sam, and you can see her whisper to him what she has learned. That’s what prompts him to toast Charlie. I’m not sold on that part. I really like in the book where it’s– 

Ghenet: He just comes down and does it.

Beth: He just sees Charlie for who he is outside of trauma he’s experienced. I understand to tell the story in the movie, why they did it. That’s probably the one part of the book that I like better.

Ghenet: I would agree with that. It does change it slightly, doesn’t it? Because there’s less of an obligation to do it in the book because he’s just had this moment with Patrick, because obviously, he goes upstairs and accidently walks in on Brad and Patrick making out just like he does, and Patrick is like, “It’s okay. I know you saw– Hold on, are you baked?” He’s like, “Like a cake.” 

Beth: [laughs] 

Ghenet: They have this really hilarious conversation, and then Charlie goes downstairs, and you can see Patrick is like, “Okay, I see who you are.” When he comes down and does that unprompted, that’s one thing. But then when Sam says to him, “He just told me that his friend shot himself up last night like I don’t think he hasn’t– [crosstalk] 

Beth: Yeah. That’s the only one you can really hear is, I don’t think he has anybody. Because you know what Sam is whispering to him but the only audible line is at the end where she says, “I think he’s alone.” It changes why they’ve chosen to be his friend. 

Ghenet: It does. It changes the intention of it. They do that and then he’s like, “I didn’t think anybody noticed me,” which is so– [crosstalk] Logan Lerman more than makes up for that when they’re like, “What’s wrong?” He says that and it’s really sweet. Then Sam walks up to him and is like, “Welcome to the islands of misfit toys.” 

Beth: Patrick’s line is my favorite though, when he responds, “We didn’t think there was anyone else cool [unintelligible 00:24:25].” Yeah,

Ghenet: They could have just ended it there, I would have been fine. The other [crosstalk] is a bit too on the nose. Then, they’re driving and the David Bowie song comes on, she’s like, “Oh, my God. Have you ever heard of this song before?” He’s like, “No.” Then, she’s like, “We have to go through the tunnel,” and it’s the whole thing. Then they’re going through it, and then she’s doing that, and she’s doing her arm thing, and David Bowie is playing.

Beth: [laughs] Yeah. 

Ghenet: She’s swimming but in the air on the back of [crosstalk] like you do. Patrick looks over at Charlie, and this great moment where he’s like, “What is it?” Charlie is just like, “I feel infinite.” Then, he starts laughing, and then Patrick starts laughing, and it’s very sweet. It makes the tunnel feel a lot more magical than I think I pictured it in the book.

Beth: Yeah. It’s sweet, and it’s funny, and it’s poignant, but it’s also hilarious because he’s just high.

Ghenet: He’s still high.

[laughter] 

Beth: This is a really significant life moment coming from being stoned. Oh, baby, I love it so much. I think that really helps keep it from being like, “Ugh, so cheesy,” because it is a little bit funny. Oh, I love it. It is a little bit funny.

Ghenet: Then, it’s back to school, and Bill is giving him more books and stuff. We start to learn more about the other people, we’ve learned about Mary Elizabeth and her Punk Rocky fanzine, and Alice, who– She has a lot more to her in the film than she does in the book. In the book, she’s just a fringe character. But in the film, they talk about how she’s really into film, she wants to go to NYU, and she also steals blue jeans from the mall. Even though she has the money to pay for them, she steals them for some reason, which is quite funny. Then we learn a little bit more about Patrick and Brad’s relationship, and then Charlie says that he’s trying to make a mixtape for Sam about being in the tunnel, and then there’s this moment where they’re recording, and then the mixtape stops, and he’s like, “Damn it.”

Beth: [laughs] 

Ghenet: I felt his pain. 

Beth: Yep.

Ghenet: I felt his pain and this is obviously showing my age a little bit.

Beth: I know.

Ghenet: But I always remember the frustration of trying to record a song off the radio and the tape of the song or slightly before the song was over, they would come in with a commercial and you’d be like, “Ooh.” When you turn on the radio to do it and it would be halfway through the song and then you’d have to start again. You’d have to rewind to the right– 

Beth: [laughs] 

Beth: Oh, my God. 

Beth: Yeah. What a time the 90s were.

Ghenet: The good old days. 

Beth: [laughs] 

Ghenet: What a time. So, that happens, and it’s really funny, and then you get this funny thing of him singing along to the song, and it’s just really– Oh, it’s so sweet. Then, we get to the Rocky Horror Picture show, and it is phenomenal. 

Beth: I love it. 

Ghenet: I have always wanted to go see Rocky Horror Picture Show, but have this happening because that’s the thing I’ve ever done in real life and I’ve always wanted to. Every time I watch this movie, I’m like, “I need to do that.”

Beth: It seems so good. Maybe I’ve just missed it in the book, but I love that Brad goes to the Rocky Horror shows.

Ghenet: Yeah. I don’t remember if that’s the thing that happens in the book, but I think it solidifies him as his and Patrick’s relationship and obviously, the people who were there are going to be quite accepting. So, it’s okay for him to be there. That’s like a safe space for him. But I think it’s interesting, because obviously, later on in the books, after his dad catches them, there’s a moment where they go to the park and they see Brad with another guy, because you get the sense he’s very exploring his sexuality, he’s still just trying to figure it out. I almost feel him going to The Rocky Horror, it’s not the same, but it’s a similar kind of thing where he’s exploring this other side of him. He wants to be in situations where he can. It’s funny, because obviously, Patrick is playing Frank ‘N Furter, and he comes out, and he’s in Charlie’s lap, and Charlie looks around at Brad, and Brad is smiling, and laughing, and having a good time, and he feels very at ease. But then obviously, there’s just so many layers to that.

Ghenet: I like what you said about it being a safe space because that’s what Rocky Horror is. It is this accepting safe space for so many people. I love that’s one of the elements of both the book and the movie.

Ghenet: Then they go to a party at Craig’s. Craig is a big old douche.

Beth: Oh, boy.

Ghenet: There’s a few things that he says that I was like, “I don’t like you.” But I think that’s the thing you are supposed to not like him for Charlie and Sam a bit more. Charlie witnesses that and then at school, he sees Candace and Derek together and it leads into this conversation with Mr. Anderson. But I love that he goes in, and hands him an essay, and then he’s like, “Do you want another one?” He just keeps spare books in his desk drawer [laughs] Yeah. 

Beth: You know he brought [unintelligible 00:29:24] in for Charlie. My head cannon is he just brought in all these books to keep in his desk because he knows Charlie will come back– [crosstalk] 

Ghenet: Anytime, Charlie wants a book, he can give him a book. Yeah. 100%. That is absolutely accurate. Also, Charlie’s keeping them. It’s not even he’s [crosstalk] but he’s just like, “No, this is for you.” But it’s so sweet. Then, they have that conversation about how can people choose the wrong people to date and he’s like, “Are we talking about someone specific?” Charlie’s like, “Mm.” Then, he says, ” we accept the love we think we deserve.” “Can we make them know they deserve more?” “We can try.” Which is such a beautiful moment.

I know we’ve talked about this earlier, but in the book, even just that line, we accept the love we think we deserve is such a poignant line. But then, I think that movie making the choice to follow up on that is equally as powerful because it’s just that recognition of we can’t force anyone to do anything. All we can do is try and either they accept it, or they don’t, and it just adds a whole new layer to that. There’s something really sweet about that, and also just the way that Charlie is like, “That makes sense. Okay.” They have a nice little– [crosstalk] 

Beth: Yeah. I love the addition of asking if we can make them think differently, because it is both an acknowledgment of you do have the power to affect change and affect someone’s life.

Ghenet: But not always in the way that you necessarily want. 

Beth: Right. 

Ghenet: And also, if they’re not ready to accept it, they’re not going to be able to no matter how hard you try. 

Beth: Right. We can only do so much. It’s another moment of Charlie hearing something and not understanding it yet. That’s really a moment of–

Ghenet: Yeah.

Beth: Charlie should have learned from that, like the you can’t set yourself on fire thing and he doesn’t quite get it yet. 

Ghenet: He will eventually but yes. Then it’s Christmas, and they’re doing Secret Santa, and I love the scene where his mom is decorating the tree, and his dad is sitting there drinking, and Charlie’s like, “Can I have $30?” He’s like, “$20? What do you need $10 for?” Then, he gives him $50. [laughs] 

Beth: It’s lovely. 

Ghenet: I don’t know why it’s there but I love it. It’s such a sweet moment. You’re just like, “Aww.”

Beth: It’s interesting because the family dynamic from the book to the movie is very different.

Ghenet: Yeah, it is.

Beth: It’s very different. 
Ghenet: Yes. They do their Secret Santa, Sam gets a 1210 on her SATs, and she’s very, very excited about it. I had to stop for a second because I don’t know if you remember this, but around the time that we were taking the SATs or just before, they changed it. It used to be out of 1600, didn’t it?

Beth: Yes. 

Ghenet: Then, it upped to 2400. When we took the SATs, it was out of 2400. Few years before us, it was just out of 1,600. I had to stop and think about that for a second because I was like, “1210 out of 24–” Oh, non, no, no. 90s, 1600. That’s fine. Yeah. The other way round. 

Beth: That’s it.

Ghenet: You’re not getting into college, “Sorry. We see presents being put into lockers,” and it’s really funny because you see Charlie, then you see Sam, and then you see Patrick open his locker and he goes, “Mm” and he rips out a box and is frantically opening it, and it’s really funny. Patrick has all of the same presents that Charlie gave him in the book. Then, it’s Charlie’s turn and he stands up and he’s like, “Oh, my God, all of these things and I was instructed to wear them. I think that my Secret Santa is Mary Elizabeth,” and they’re like, “Interesting. Why?” He’s like, “Because she likes to boss people around,” and everyone’s just like–

Beth: “What?”

[laughter] 

Beth: I love her very quiet, “What is wrong with you?” 

Ghenet: [laughs] 

Beth: [laughs] 

Ghenet: Sam is next to her just trying not to laugh. Yeah. Patrick’s like, “Nope, it was me. The rest of it is in the bathroom. So, go delve into our facilities and emerge a man.” Then there’s this really funny moment where Charlie is like, “Will you hand these out?” Then, Mary Elizabeth’s like, “We were only supposed to get Secret Santa presents, what are you doing?” Then Patrick turns in her and goes, “Mary Elizabeth, why are you trying to eat Christmas?”

Beth: so specific and weird. No one says that. 

Ghenet: So specific but it’s hilarious. 

Beth: So funny.

Ghenet: I want to know if that was improvised. There’s certain scenes where I’m like, “Is that real or they just so in the moment that they just like–?”

Beth: That’s what came out of your mouth. 

Ghenet: Yeah. But it works. It’s weird, and it works, and I love it. Then, Charlie comes out in his suit, and they all start cheering, and it’s amazing. Then, Sam goes upstairs and gives Charlie the typewriter. I know we talked about a little bit how the whole thing with him helping her with the SATs and stuff is not in the book. In the book, she just gives him a typewriter, whereas in this way, they’ve changed it so it doesn’t feel quite so out of the blue, and it solidifies their relationship a bit more, like the two of them just spending time together. 

Beth: Christmas in the book, his party with his friends is a little sad, because they did Secret Santa, but then it’s established that everyone else got presents for everyone else, and Charlie only gets presents from Patrick and Sam. Ooh, there was a part of me that was like that embarrassment and that sadness, but you’re trying to play it off as no big deal, really hit hard.

Ghenet: Yes, but also at the same time the other people, our fringe characters, and we don’t see them have a relationship of Charlie the same way Patrick and Sam have– [crosstalk] 

Beth: True. I say that to say I like the movie better. The choices the movie made, better than the book. 

Ghenet: Yeah, for sure. Especially, this bit because then he’s giving out the presents, and it’s that really sweet moment of like he gives Alice the book, and the way that they say, you can tell that they’re all really touched and he gets her a book, and she’s like, “Oh, I know, you’ll get into NYU next year,” and she’s just like, “Aww.” Then, he has Bob with the bubbles, and he’s like, “She knows me. She really gets me” or whatever he says. Then, Mary Elizabeth opens her envelope, and its money, and it’s to print Punk Rocky. You can tell they’re all really touched. Then, Sam gets the record, and you can just see she’s reading a card. We don’t know what’s in it but she’s just like– They’re all so touched by him. 

But I think that does make a difference to show that he sees them all and even in the film, it’s just the Secret Santa presents. So, there’s not really that extra bit, but it still means a lot. I definitely agree with you. I think the way they do it in the film is a little bit better. But yeah, so Sam gives Charlie the typewriter, they have a really heartfelt conversation about Sam’s doing really well and Sam then says Charlie’s doing really well, and they’re talking about relationships and stuff, and she admits this bit of trauma to him that the first person she kissed was when she was younger, it was a friend of her dad’s. Charlie tells her about Aunt Helen and how she went through similar things, she was getting her life together, and then she’s like, “Well, she sounds she was really special,” and he says that thing about, “She was my favorite person in the whole world until now,” and you’re just like, “Oh.”

Beth: Yeah.

Ghenet: Then, she says– [crosstalk] 

Beth: Charlie, you precious little thing. 

Ghenet: I know. He’s such a precious little thing. 

Beth: [laughs] 

Ghenet: But then also, this is something that I didn’t pick up on until just now reading it and watching it again is when she then decides that the first person who should kiss him is someone who loves him having it immediately followed that conversation, just changes it entirely. It’s not even just like, “I’m doing this because I love you.” It’s like, “I’m doing this because I love you and I don’t want you to have a similar situation. I want to start it off on the right foot. Here we go.” It completely changes it. I didn’t even realize that when I’d watched it or read it before. It just completely was over my head but I got it this time.

Beth: I know. It’s beautiful but it’s also really tragic. It’s a different dynamic in the movie than the book because and I liked that they left this out of the movie. But Sam tells Charlie very early in the book to not think of her that way. She tells him which, I guess, in the end makes a little bit more sense why he never asked her out because she told him straight up, “Don’t think of me that way.”

Ghenet: But they also say that in their last conversation before she’s like, “Why didn’t you ever ask me out?” He’s like, “You told me not to.” She’s like, “Yeah, nine months ago.” He’s like, “Oh.”

Beth: Yeah, I know. [laughs] Which as an adult reading that I’m like, “Well, okay, there’s some stuff to unpack there,” but you accept it as teenage behavior and move on. I like how they presented in the movie just as, “You know I’m dating Craig. However.” 

Ghenet: I just want to do this thing for you but I also don’t want you to read too much into it, because I’m just doing it for these reasons and not for these other reasons that you might think. Yeah, I like how they do it in the film as well. It is a very sweet moment between them. 

Beth: I remember, I think it was an interview with Logan Lerman that I had watched soon after the film came out talking about that scene specifically and the relationship that he and Emma Watson had built, and how tough that scene was because of the topic, the subject matter. The beauty of having two young actors really trust each other. 

Ghenet: Well, they were quite young at the time that they were filming it, weren’t they? He was only like 17 or 18 and she was like 20? 

Beth: Well.

Ghenet: Not too far off from– 

Beth: No, he had been an adult. They filmed it in– Because it came out in 2012. So, it was probably 2010, 2011, he’s only four years younger than us. He was in his early 20s. 

Ghenet: Really? 

Beth: Yeah. Why do I know birthdays of actors? It’s stupid, but I do. 

Ghenet: That’s fine, I’m with you. It’s cool. 

Beth: [laughs] But that’s still really young to be dealing with that type of subject.

Ghenet: Logan Lerman was 18 when they filmed it.

Beth: Okay. 

Ghenet: Then, Emma Watson was 21 and Ezra Miller was 17.

Beth: Oh, my God. I don’t know he was that young. 

Ghenet: He’s been in the business for a few years. 

Beth: Ezra Miller or Logan Lerman?

Ghenet: Both of them.

Beth: I guess this was my first experience with Ezra Miller. Obviously, we both know that we’ve been fans of Logan Lerman since Jack & Bobby. 

Ghenet: Oh, my God. 

Beth: Come on. 

Ghenet: over. [laughs] 

Beth: Do you remember that show?

Ghenet: Yes, I do. I was to that.

Beth: Yes. If I really stop and think about– If I categorize who’s my favorite actor by how much I’ve seen and how much I’ve liked of what I’ve seen, it’s Logan Lerman all day long. I’ve been a fan of his for so long at this point. 

Ghenet: Oh, my God. I haven’t thought about Jack & Bobby in so long. 

Beth: It has. That show was so good. I was so upset that only went one season. That wasn’t even one of the first things he did because he’s– 

Ghenet: No. He was in The Butterfly Effect. I remember him as the [crosstalk]. 

Beth: He’s in The Patriots. You remember, he was the youngest son. 

Ghenet: Yeah. He was in Riding in Cars with Boys too. 

Beth: Oh, my God, that’s right. 

Ghenet: Anyway, Logan Lerman tangent. [laughs] 

Beth: I told you I was going to have one out here. I love him. 

Ghenet: Same. Immediately after that, Chris, his brother comes home, and they have a nice little chat, and you can really see his brother being like, “Are you okay? How are things?” He even says like, “Mom says you have really good friends now. Maybe if things get bad again, you could talk to them about it.” 

Beth: Right. 

Ghenet: It’s a nice little moment between the two of them, especially when you don’t really get that much of his brother in the film. 

Beth: Oh, he’s really just the football star. 

Ghenet: Then they’re at the party, and he takes LSD, and then he’s shoveling snow, and Sam comes out and he says the line. It’s almost verbatim what happens in the book, except that it’s not Sam in the book. It’s just like some random guy. The whole thing with the glasses doesn’t really happen which is again, another weird thing that I’m just– [crosstalk] 

Beth: It has like, “We need this? Probably not.” 

Ghenet: I could have done without that. But she comes out and she’s like, “Shoveling snow, huh?” He’s like, “Yeah, but there was a tree, and then it was a dragon, then it was a tree again, and then it lied me,” and she was just like, “Oh, sweetie.” Them hallucinations is going– Yeah. His whole trip, he’s just all over the place, lots of things are happening, everyone’s all weird and blended together, and then he falls down in the snow, and then he’s in the hospital, and he just wakes up, and everyone’s just standing there looking over him. 

Beth: I relate. [crosstalk] his sister sitting next to him. I love that little detail that Candace is sitting next to him.

Ghenet: Then, he wears his suit to school and everyone’s making fun of him. Then, it cuts to this really sweet scene where you see them– Everyone’s getting dressed for Rocky Horror. Charlie is sitting next to Brad and Brad is like, “They just tell you that to scare you. It’s fine.” He’s trying to talk him off [crosstalk] 

Beth: [laughs] 

Ghenet: [crosstalk] seriously. He’s just like, “LSD does that. Don’t worry. You’ll be okay.” I think Brad is also a more rounded character in the film as well. They add a lot more to him, which is nice. He does some unforgiveable things but it hurts more, because they took a bit more time to flesh him out, I think.

Beth: Yeah, absolutely. That’s such a recognizable character. 

Ghenet: Absolutely. Yes. They’re trying to get on the phone with Craig and they finally do, and he’s not coming, and it’s quite funny, because then Mary Elizabeth is like, “Brad?” Patrick is like, “Hell no.” Then she just looks at Charlie and like, “Charlie, take off your clothes,” and he’s just like, “What?” He steps in to play him, and he does such a good job. During the scene with Sam as Janet, he puts his hands out because he’s supposed to touch her, and she’s like, “No, you have to touch–“

Beth: Right.

Ghenet: She has to touch me because she’s singing along when it’s really funny, because she’s like [crosstalk] 

Beth: Yeah. [laughs] 

Ghenet: It’s just really funny because he’s so uncomfortable. 

Beth: I know. That’s another moment of that bravery thing going for it.

Ghenet: Yeah, that he decided to do it.

Beth: Oh, it’s lovely. 

Ghenet: It is. It’s really sweet. Then afterwards, Mary Elizabeth asks Charlie to the dance. He’s like, “You’re asking me to the dance?’ She’s like, “Yeah, I’m tired of macho guys.” He’s like, “What?”

Beth: Yeah. [laughs] 

Ghenet: He’s surprised that she’s asking but then also, she’s equally surprised that he says yes. 

Beth: Yes. 

Ghenet: They go to the dance, and there’s some crumbs here that are interesting that they do via editing that I think is really good that we get in the book but in a different context. There’s a moment where they’re at the dance and Charlie’s talking to Sam. While they’re speaking, Mary Elizabeth is talking to Alice, and she looks behind her, and sees the Charlie’s not there. She looks for him, and she sees him talking to Sam, and you see that moment of her going, “Oh, God, oh, God.” It’s this very brief moment of insecurity that we get in other places in the book that’s solidified then by later how they break up but like to see that little moment. 

Beth: Yeah, you know, there’s something there. 

Ghenet: They go back to Mary Elizabeth house afterwards, and they make out after a bit, and there’s a moment where Charlie pictures Sam, and then they stop making out and Mary Elizabeth lies down. She’s like, “I didn’t know how tonight was going to go. I can’t believe you’re my boyfriend.” Then, it like pans to Charlie, and Charlie’s sitting there just as– [crosstalk] 

Beth: Panic.

Ghenet: Not even the panic. 

Beth: [laughs] 

Ghenet: The confusion. He has no idea what has happened. 

Beth: Yeah. Is that how you get a girlfriend? What? 

Ghenet: [laughs] 

Beth: Yeah. [laughs] 

Ghenet: They’ve obviously condensed this a little bit, but you get the sense that Charlie is not enjoying this relationship at all. He doesn’t really know what to do. She calls him as soon as he gets home, and he goes back into the kitchen while she’s on the phone. His mom goes, “She’s still on the phone? Charlie, you have to break up with her.” Then Charlie goes. “I can do that?”

Beth: Yeah.

Ghenet: Then the dad’s like, “I need the phone.” 

[laughter] 

Beth: It’s such a 90s dad response. I love that change because in the book, he just puts the phone down, and goes to the bathroom, and comes back, and she’s still talking. I love that they gave him a moment with his parents in the movie.

Ghenet: Then, they’re playing truth or dare. I don’t think they did this in the book, but in the movie, initially, he says truth. Then, he says that really mean thing about, “This is so bad that I keep wishing that– [crosstalk] 

Beth: One of us would get cancer? Ugh. 

Ghenet: One of us had cancer. Just why wouldn’t I? Then, Mary Elizabeth is just like, [crosstalk] 

Beth: Yeah. 

Ghenet: She just does little head cock, and then you’re just like, “You did not just say that, Charlie.” Then, it’s like, “Oh, phew, No, you didn’t. Okay.” 

Beth: You’re going to do something much worse. 

Ghenet: Right. He dares him to kiss the prettiest girl in the room, and then he kisses Sam, and it’s just very awkward. Mary Elizabeth runs out. Patrick and Alice are just like, “Oh, this is awkward.” Then, Patrick tells him to stay away for a little while. It’s really heartbreaking because Patrick trying to explain to him, and then he gets into the car, and then Patrick’s like, “Just stay away for a little while.” Then, Charlie’s like, “But how long?” Then, Patrick’s just like– 

Beth: He kicks the door. I love that change from– Because in the book, Charlie acknowledges that he cries a lot. He cries a lot, this poor boy. I love that they didn’t make that part of the character in the movie until this moment, because it really was powerful to see Charlie having that moment of confusion, and weakness, and crying, and instead of it being like, “Oh, there we go. He’s crying again.” It’s really heart breaking. 

Ghenet: Yeah, absolutely.

Beth: You love this kid but he’s still so much a child in so many different ways he does understand.

Ghenet: Well, because also then in the book that they don’t really touch on is when they do finally make up. Sam specifically says like, “Thank you for staying away and for giving us our space to heal from this.” He’s trying to apologize to Mary Elizabeth on the phone, and she’s not having it. He goes to see Bob, who tells him about what happened with Patrick and Brad’s father catching them, and Patrick obviously is really out of it, and he is in the lunchroom, and he’s walking, and one of Brad’s friends, who’s sitting at the table trips him, and Patrick gets mad, and Brad calls him a slur just like he does in the book, and Patrick punches him, and they start fighting, and then all the friends ganging up on him, and then it’s flashes of things. We see Sam, and Mary Elizabeth, and Alice tried to save him, and then all of a sudden, Charlie is there. Everyone’s staring at him quietly, and then he looks at his hand, and his hand is shaking, and it’s- 

Beth: Really bruised. Yeah. 

Ghenet: -really bruised. Then you see one of the guys on the floor, and then Brad gets up and is looking, just doesn’t really know what to do. Then he says that thing of, “Touch my friends again, and I’ll blind you.” But it changes it slightly, having him black out versus in the book, it was a conscious choice to go protect his friends. 

Beth: That’s right. Yeah. 

Ghenet: Then in the book also, he says, “If this happens again, I’ll tell everyone.” 

Beth: He says both things, I think. 

Ghenet: He says both things. But the implication of him saying, “I’ll tell everyone” is “I’ll tell everyone your secret, Brad.”

Beth: Oh, yeah. I’ll tell everyone. If that doesn’t work out, I’ll blind you. Yeah. He says that directly to Brad in the book. Then in the movie, it’s to all of the people. 

Ghenet: Generally, I will blind everyone. Yeah, I think it does change it slightly to take away that conscious choice, and it’s blackout, and he can’t really remember. But I also don’t hate it.

Beth: Yeah. I accept both versions.

Ghenet: I do think it’s more powerful for him to specifically speak to Brad and be like, “If this happens again, I’m telling everyone.” Because that’s his worst fear. 

Beth: Yeah. 

Ghenet: Yes, that happens. Everyone is standing there staring at him all looking pretty terrified. Everyone’s just mouths akimbo. They just don’t know what to do. Then, they’re outside the principal’s office or something, and then Brad says, “Thank you.” Then when he walks out, Sam is there, and they make up, and then it’s this whole bit with Charlie hanging out with Patrick, who’s really struggling, and it’s again, the way that he’s grieving this relationship, and also just the whole situation, and Charlie just trying to be there. 

Then, we move forward. Sam’s gotten into school, which is very exciting. It is the end of the school year. Mr. Anderson and Charlie have a moment, where they’re saying goodbye to each other. He says, “I think you could write a novel one day basically,” and Charlie’s like, “You’re the best teacher I’ve ever had.” They have a hug, it’s very sweet. Candace breaks up with Derek and goes to prom with her girlfriends. Sam finds out that Craig was cheating the whole time. They have their graduation. Patrick writes “Nothing hates you” on his cap, and it’s really funny, and then it’s just before Sam is leaving, and Charlie gives him all of the books, which is slightly different, in that in the book, he gives it to Sam and Patrick. Patrick is included in that. 

Then, while they’re upstairs packing, they have this conversation, and she’s like, “Why do I and everyone I love pick people who treat us we’re nothing?” Then he brings it all back with the love we deserve. Then, they have this moment and she does the whole, you can’t put everyone before you and think that you’re da, da, da. I don’t want to be someone’s crush. Then, I know who you are Sam because then they start kissing, and then in all caps, I just wrote, “LOGAN, I’M CRYING.” 

Beth: Oh. [laughs] 

Ghenet: It’s usually, it’s part of a film where I get really emotional. 

Beth: Yep. 

Ghenet: He’s like, “I know who you are. You’re beautiful,” and then just grabs her face, and you’re just like, “Oh.” 

Beth: Oh, okay and they’re going for it.

Ghenet: Then they kiss, and then she touches him on his leg, but something is wrong, and it’s really alarming, and there’s this realization about Aunt Helen. Then, he’s freaking out, he’s hallucinating, he’s all over the place. It’s very jarring and very cut up, which I think is representative of his state of mind, even though it’s strange and you’re just like, “What is happening?” It works. It just gets the point across he is struggling. 

Then, there’s a scene where Candace is at her friend’s house, and the phone rings, and it’s Charlie, and you hear Charlie speaking, and she’s walking away all joyful, and the way that– When he says Aunt Helen, and she just freezes. 

Beth: Yeah. This has happened before and she knows where we’re going. 

Ghenet: He immediately is like, “Call the police and send them to my house right now,” and then keeps talking to him. But it’s just that real moment, just the way that she’s literally just like, “Blah, blah, blah.”

Beth: Well, that really hits me, is just the visceral fear of being an older sister and having a younger sibling to take care of, that really hits home. 

Ghenet: I suppose it’s not even from a sibling point of view, but anyone who you love who’s struggling with something, there’s always that fear there, isn’t there, and you just want to be able to help them. But sometimes they’re in a place where you can’t help them. Yeah, it’s very, very real and it’s acted so beautifully by Logan. Just all of, oh, it breaks my heart, and he then wakes up, and he’s in the hospital, and this is the point where it’s the epilogue and they stretch it out a little bit. But this is always the point as well where I’m sobbing, deep heaving breath cries, where you’re just like, [heavy sobbing sounds] literally.

Beth: [laughs] I can’t The moment that I start breaking down is when he’s sitting at his desk, and he’s telling himself to stop crying. That’s always my trigger. Always. 

Ghenet: The tears, the tears. I think when you said about how in the book, he cries a lot, but they don’t really show that as much in the film. I think because they don’t, that feel so much bigger and you understand the impact, like what had to happen for him to get to this point that he cannot control it. He’s sitting there trying to [unintelligible 00:53:12] himself and it’s not working and he’s just freaking out walking around the house. Even when he calls Candace, you can hear his voice on the phone, and he sounds so far away, not just physically, because he’s talking through the phone, but even just the way that he’s speaking– [crosstalk] 

Beth: Definitely emotionally, he’s not here anymore. 

Ghenet: Yeah, and just she can feel it, we can feel it. It’s all just. Then, it’s the cut to Aunt Helen crying in the kitchen when he’s little, and he turns over her wrist, and you can see the marks, and then he’s in the kitchen, and he looks and you just see a knife, and you’re just like, “Oh, God. Oh, God. Oh, God,” and then blackout, and he’s in the hospital. But you can’t read the letter. But he’s talking about what’s been happening to him in letter form. 

They do use the letter form to some extent in the film. They do bits of voiceover, which I’m glad that they didn’t do it too much, because it could have come off really cheesy, but they do little bits of it. When they do it, it’s really effective, and this is a moment, and he’s talking about how there’s good days and bad days, and there’s good days, and he opens a letter, and you can see that it’s from Sam, but on the desk next to him is his box of books. 

Beth: Oh, yeah. 

Ghenet: That little detail, she’s sending him a little piece of himself that he gave to her so that he can get better. Just every time I see that, it is such a little detail, and I’m always just like, [crying sounds] 

Beth: It’s such a huge impact. 

Ghenet: Then you see him surrounded by his family, and they’re all being really loving and supportive, and his brother and sister, they’re playing cards, and they’re laughing, and smiling. Then, they’re at dinner, and you can tell it’s a bit awkward because they don’t really know what to do, but then they ease back into it. Then, Sam and Charlie come to see him, and they have dinner, and she tells him about how she’s been, and then she puts a tape on the table. She’s made him a mixtape, and then she just says, “I found the tunnel song,” and then they go, and at that point, I’m crying again, but it’s happy tears, and they get in the car, they go. They turn on David Bowie. He stands up in the back of the truck, and flies, and it’s just like– 

Beth: A cathartic– Argh.

Ghenet: Oh, it is and him going, “In this moment, we are infinite.” That song, because it’s such an uplifting song, you feel the hope and you feel– 

Beth: Things will be okay. 

Ghenet: Yeah.

Beth: It’s a beautiful choice to add that through line of this song that we don’t know, and then trying to find it, and then eventually finding it when you need it most. 

Ghenet: Music has that amazing ability and it’s just so beautiful to see him just having this moment and I love it. I love it so much and I’m emotional just thinking about it.

Beth: I know. Well, I love– It’s exactly what Sam did, but there’s watching how he progresses into that stance because he doesn’t have his footing right away. It’s very careful. 

Ghenet: No. He’s sitting down and his back is– He is looking back. He’s looking at everything behind him. 

Beth: Then, he stands and– [crosstalk] 

Ghenet: Then, he turns around, and then Sam is there, and then they have this nice kiss, and then he kind of gets up, and then he kind of gets up, and then he starts with one hand. 

Beth: Yeah. That’s what I love the most. It also gives me a little bit of anxiety, like the shot of them flying out of the tunnel into the cityscape. 

Ghenet: Oh, my God. 

Beth: Oh, my God. 

Ghenet: Yeah. You know in real life, they were strapped to the bejesus into that truck. [laughs] Yeah, it’s just so beautiful, though. You can’t not feel everything’s going to be okay. As someone who loves the book to see such a faithful adaptation of the film where they made changes, but they kept the spirit of it, I understand just about every single change they made. Maybe not every single one but for the most part, I get it. 

Beth: Like 99% of them.

Ghenet: There’s very few that I’m like, “Why did you do that?” 

Beth: Yeah, exactly. 

Ghenet: I think that’s a testament to the book. It’s a testament to Stephen Chbosky as the writer, and screenwriter, and director that he was like, “Let’s do this right.” The cast was so well done. Also, I can’t listen to Heroes by David Bowie and not think about flying through a tunnel in the back of a pick-up truck. 

Beth: Right. The whole soundtrack is just perfect. 

Ghenet: So good. I have the soundtrack on vinyl.

Beth: Perfect. Me too. 

[laughter] 

Ghenet: Yeah. 

Beth: Oh, my gosh. Yeah. It’s one of those things that like– Because I read the book through and I was like, “Okay, that was a thing, I guess.” It’s taken me a bit to reread bits and process it to get to today. But then, I watched the movie and I was crying in an instant, because of the music. The first song is starting and I was like, “Oh, here we go.” It’s so good. I cannot remember if you and I watched this together. Some part of my memory thinks that we watched it together but I don’t think that’s correct.

Ghenet: I don’t think so either because we would have been out of– We were living [crosstalk] time. 

Beth: Yeah. It would have been in the time in New York, but I don’t think– 

Ghenet: I don’t remember.

Beth: I don’t know. I say that to say this is a movie in a book that I relate to our friendship. 

Ghenet: Yeah. No, I do as well.

Beth: I don’t know why, because it’s not like we experienced it at the same time together. 

Ghenet: No.

Beth: I don’t know.

Ghenet: But I think there’s things that we relate to. We’ve talked about our love of them together, a mutual love of Logan Lerman.

Beth: Yeah.

[laughter] 

Ghenet: That must be it. I wasn’t going to ask anyone else to do this. 

Beth: Yeah. Well, I’m honored. 

Ghenet: Imagine if I had, you would have been like, “What the fuck? Excuse me?”

[laughter] 

Beth: I have thoughts and objections to this. 

Ghenet: We’re talking about book to movie. Well, I think we can say that the film is fairly faithful to the book. But was there anything in the book that you wish had been in the film?

Beth: I really don’t think so. There were elements of the book that I really enjoyed that were missing from the movie. I really liked the relationship that Charlie built with his dad via M*A*S*H, and I liked that, but I didn’t miss it. I suppose I would have loved to see a little bit more of the tough relationship and then the healing relationship that he had with his sister. That felt a little shallow but it wasn’t as detailed as it wasn’t in the movie. That’s probably my only thing that I would have loved to see a little bit more of– I’m trying to remember her name. The actress is really good. I think she would have really done an excellent job. 

Ghenet: I feel they might have filmed it. Maybe it’s a deleted scene and they just didn’t– I like the bit where he takes her to the clinic. Obviously, that moment in the book is a poignant part of their relationship and they get through it together. It would have been nice to see that, but obviously, you can’t fit everything in. So, it’s not like I’m devastated it wasn’t there.

Beth: There’s nothing missing that I’m devastated to have missed in the movie. There are just little bits and pieces that I remember from the book that would have been cool to see, but I get it. The story telling remains intact with the movie. 

Ghenet: It’s very truthful and honest to it, and there’s nothing that I’m like, “Why wasn’t that in? Other books, I can be like this moment. Should have been in the book. In the movie, why wasn’t it? Oh.” That doesn’t really happen at this. I think it’s a testament to both. They complement each other. They can be their own thing but also, they blend together. They are almost a perfect pair then to the point where I don’t even think if you ask me which one I prefer, I don’t think I have an answer.

Beth: I think for me, it’s the movie. It’s close but not remembering if I ever read this book before now, and knowing the movie or remembering the movie as my first experience, I don’t know. There’s something about it that I go back to the movie first as much as the book is lovely. Especially now that we’ve dissected it a little bit more, I have more things to love about it. I don’t know. That movie is just– [crosstalk] 

Ghenet: The book is very heavy. 

Beth: Yeah. 

Ghenet: You can get the whole story in two and a half hours if you watch the film, and you get pretty much the same story. So, I fully get that. I think for me, the book was always really special in that I saw a lot of myself in it. Not just in Charlie, but in all of the characters. In Charlie, in Sam, in Patrick, in Mary Elizabeth. I see so much of myself in that and watching the film, it’s almost a faster way to connect with it because it feels the same– They feel like extensions of each other. 

Beth: Yep. They’re really companion pieces. Truly. 

Ghenet: Yeah. I don’t think I have anything else to say. I think we’ve pretty much covered it all, haven’t we?

Beth: I think so. Yeah. It’s so special. I know I’ve said that so many times and I haven’t really delved into the details of why, more than just talking about bits and pieces of the book and movie. 

Ghenet: Yeah. It’s special to everyone for their own reasons. You don’t need to delve into it. Every book that you read is going to be a part of you, no matter what and for different reasons. We have different experiences, but we both get things from this book. You don’t need to explain. 

Beth: Right. Exactly. 

Ghenet: It is a very special book. I absolutely would agree with that. But thank you for allowing me to sit here and talk to you about it. 

Beth: Oh, thank you for asking me to do this. Yeah. 

Ghenet: It was a lot of fun. I feel we really like– That was a rollercoaster feeling and emotion. [laughs] 

Beth: I know. This is my first podcast ever. Oooh.

Ghenet: Yeah, girl. Oh, my gosh. Amazing. If people want to follow along on your grad school adventures as you do or anything, where can they find you on the internet in order to do that?

Beth: I’m not especially interesting but I do– [laughs] thank you. Instagram is where I post the most. Didn’t mean for that to rhyme but it did. You can find me @elizabeth.somerville1. I have a Twitter but I don’t use it. So, just Instagram. 

Ghenet: [laughs] 

Beth: Twitter that you set up for me. Do you remember that? 

Ghenet: I do remember that. 

Beth: Twitter stresses me out but I got Instagram. 

[laughter] 

Ghenet: One is fine. That’s cool. Thank you so much for doing this with me. Listeners, I hope you have enjoyed yourselves. That’s enough. So, that’s on The Perks of Being a Wallflower. We will catch you next time. 
That is right. We’ll be back with a new episode in two weeks’ time. If you’re enjoying the podcast, why not head over to Patreon to find out how you can become a supporter? Patrons get a whole bunch of bonus content including access to my notes, extra episodes, and more. I’m brainstorming a whole bunch of ideas. Just head over to patreon.com/bookbetterpodcast to find out more. The Book is Better is hosted, edited, and produced by me Ghenet. Don’t forget to rate and review where you can. I really appreciate it and don’t forget to tell your friends. Until next time.